Advisory Design Panel - 20 Jun 2024


1: Welcome to the Squamish Nation Traditional Territory
2: ADOPTION OF AGENDA
3: COMMITTEE MINUTES
3.A: MINUTES
3.A.i: Advisory Design Panel Minutes: May 16, 2024
4: BUSINESS
4.i: Accessory Dwelling Unit Design Competition
5: ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION
6: TERMINATION
1: Welcome to the Squamish Nation Traditional Territory
0:00:00 (0:03:42)


SPEAKER_-1
0:00:28 (0:01:59)

e

SPEAKER_01
0:02:28 (0:00:50)

e hi CH and sir it's I think it's just you to online and then the three of us here in the chambers I'll kick off the meeting if you're ready over there

SPEAKER_05
0:03:19 (0:00:00)

sure

SPEAKER_01
0:03:19 (0:00:22)

that's the whole group today it's just the five of us nice and personal okay so yeah welcome to the scho Miss Nation traditional territory this is for the advisory design panel held today on Thursday June the 20th 24 at 2 pm

ADOPTION OF AGENDA
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SPEAKER_01
0:03:42 (0:00:18)

the first item would be the option of agenda staff recommends that the June 20th 2024 advisory design panel agenda be adopted can I get a motion people to adopt both Charles and Sarah secondly by Sarah and the

Advisory Design Panel Minutes: May 16, 2024
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SPEAKER_01
0:04:00 (0:00:20)

next item would be going straight into the commit sorry the committee minutes which is advis design panel minutes May the 16th St staff's recommendation is that the advis design panel minutes dated May the 16th be adopted can we get a motion for that yeah both Charles and seconded by Sarah

Accessory Dwelling Unit Design Competition
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Matt Gunn, a planner at the District of Squamish, presented the Squamish Accessory Dwelling Unit (ADU) Design Competition, which is part of the Squamish Housing Action Plan and funded by the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation Accelerator Fund. The competition aimed to address the housing shortage by encouraging the design of ADUs that are aesthetically pleasing, innovative, affordable, sustainable, resilient, and accessible. Out of 41 submissions across three categories (Carriage House, Elevated Cottage, and Front Yard ADU), 25 met the zoning and building code requirements. The ADP members were tasked with reviewing these entries and selecting winners based on criteria such as aesthetics, innovation, affordability, sustainability, and accessibility.

During the council meeting, ADP members discussed the shortlisted designs, sharing their thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of each submission. The discussion highlighted the challenges of designing compact, efficient living spaces that could fit into existing neighborhoods while meeting the competition's criteria. Concerns were raised about the practicality of some designs, especially those in the Front Yard ADU category, regarding their size, placement, and impact on existing properties. Despite these challenges, the ADP members appreciated the effort and creativity shown in the submissions. The outcome of the meeting was to finalize the judging process by having ADP members submit their scores for each design, with the intention of announcing the winners in the second week of July. Additionally, plans were made to launch a new design contest focused on R1 Multiplex zoning, with hopes of gathering feedback to improve the contest design and judging process.

SPEAKER_01
0:04:21 (0:00:12)

so moving on to the business items it's today is the accessory dwelling unit design competition this will be presented to you and described by Matt gun planner here at District of Squamish over to you Matt

SPEAKER_02
0:04:34 (0:03:25)

thank you Luke so my name is Matt gun as Luke pointed out I'm a planner here at the District of Squamish and I am coordinating this Squamish accessory dwelling unit design competition I think the ADP members are aware of the background but I will just provide a quick overview for anybody who's watching this competition is one of the actions that was outlined in the Squamish housing action plan overview and has been funded by the Canadian mortgage and housing Corporation accelerator fund a Federal grant program that was awarded to us in January 2024 the purpose of the design competition is to raise awareness around the benefits of adus as one way to address squish's housing shortage and encourage housing variety and affordability we received 41 design designs across three categories the building department check the designs against contest parameters zoning and building code requirements and 25 designs met that those requirements the ADP members were asked to conduct an initial review of those 25 entries and select four from each category for inclusion in a short list those are the shortlisted designs are what we are going to be discussing today just moving forward the intention of the judging is to assess each of the designs across against four five criteria U those criteria are aesthe Aesthetics Innovation and creativity affordability and cost Effectiveness sustainability and resilience and accessibility and Universal Design each of those categories is intended to get a score out of 20 and then those totals will be summed up for a score out of a 100 for the designs the intention today is to give ADP members a chance to talk about each of the designs and share elements that they like about each of the designs we're not going to try and come to a conclusion about the scoring for any of the designs today this is just an opportunity to discuss the designs and highlight to other ADP members things that you characteristics that you appreciate or comments you have about each of the designs I had intended to give a chance to talk about each of the designs of which we have 12 with five members of ADP here it won't take as much time is probably was anticipated to get through each of the designs and so we may not take the fide allocated two hours for this discussion but we may progress through more rapidly but we'll just see how it goes we have lots of time to talk about each of the designs following this discussion the intention is that ADP members will over the next four days fill in this form which is linked from the staff report if you will just go for each of the design give a score out of 20 for each category it'll sum up the scores for the for the 12 designs and then email that to me I will take those forms and bring them all together and we'll get a total score across all the participating ADP members to rank the designs in each category and choose the winners so without further Ado we will start going through our short list there are three categories Carriage House elevated

SPEAKER_04
0:07:59 (0:00:03)

got

SPEAKER_02
0:08:03 (0:00:29)

it oh that's 308 in the front yard Adu I didn't get a 308 I think did you guys get 308 oh H just wait here what does 308 look like the numbers aren't actually on the designs just a second here give me one second I'll see if maybe there's two copies oh

SPEAKER_05
0:08:32 (0:00:15)

I'm doing quick math in my head here it's there's 12 designs there's five of us if we're going to run two hours on this it gives us two minutes a piece to talk about each of these

SPEAKER_02
0:08:47 (0:01:25)

items yeah I know it's not a lot of time but it's it was it's twice the time I originally thought of for each design you know we'll see how it goes it does provide a li limited amount of time to discuss each one but yeah if you could print four of the 308s yeah so it's not a lot of time but it gives a chance for people to share their comments on it and if some take less time and some take more maybe it'll work out but let's see how it goes first time trying this format and you know maybe there's maybe there's if we come up with a better way along the way we can we can discuss Shifting the process but anyway there are three categories Carriage House elevated Cottage and front yard Adu and without further Ado Let's get into the first one which is 103 the thj and I'm going to pass it off I imagine we'll go one at a time around and I intended we would just go around the circle but if anybody wants to jump in and start we can let them get going otherwise I'll turn it over maybe the first person on my right maybe or my left John would you like to start out make any comments about this

SPEAKER_00
0:10:13 (0:00:54)

guy all right yeah I mean I thought it was an attractive package that they put together so it was bit based on the information provided in the drawings it was relatively easy to tell what they were proposing in I thought you like the cost appear to me seems to be very affordable I don't know if it's realistic or not but if it's realistic that's a like fantastic to have an attractive looking building with you know constructed with quality material for the estimated like 250,000 hard costs and then I thought you know it's fairly unobtrusive ATT active design for the building it seemed like an efficient use of space and so that's about all I have to say about it I

SPEAKER_02
0:11:07 (0:00:38)

think perfect thanks I actually one thing I should just say is I come up with this idea that we would each take turn commenting but I should put it out there that if anybody feels like they'd have a different format where people just ping pong or put comments if they want to but don't feel like putting on the spot I'm happy to do that way as well so why don't we do this first one and then see if people want to continue using that format moving forward and if not we can shift okay all right who will be our normal second if we go in a circle I can't see who's on the screen all right okay sure that

SPEAKER_03
0:11:46 (0:00:04)

sounds

SPEAKER_04
0:11:50 (0:00:04)

perfect sorry can you just cut the microphone a bit closer because it's hard to hear you

SPEAKER_03
0:11:55 (0:01:09)

I didn't have it turned on sorry a in person here yeah so I would say I would say this one wasn't one of my first choices but I really appreciate this the idea of the standardized kit of Parts keeping the sizes in particular of the building components standard available at Home Depot because we live in Squamish things are difficult to access if you're trying to build things here so as much as possible keeping in mind that the scale of these buildings are actually attuned to the scale of the building material is really great consideration I think the cost is pretty good as well and that's something that I appreciate durability important consideration I found there to be something a little bit less efficient about the proposed floor plan just in terms of the use of the space and the layout initially I think that was my do they have a more detailed floor plan yeah that's right I remember this one for the I think excuse

SPEAKER_00
0:13:05 (0:00:00)

me when I

SPEAKER_03
0:13:05 (0:00:41)

skip to it yeah I think there was something a little bit that I found to be could be made to be a bit more efficient in this layout with the use of space the location of the entry and the kitchen and I it would be great to see a little bit more storage as well so those were kind of the downfalls that I saw in this one because whenever there's sort of an irregular shape it kind of tends to add cost so I think it could get a little bit more efficient as well those are my high level comments about this one so far I think that was it perfect thank you keep it

SPEAKER_01
0:13:46 (0:01:52)

concise okay yeah I would yeah stop by saying I think the Aesthetics sort of fits well in like the modern Squamish home that seems do it be appearing in a lot of places I can feel see this fitting in multiple neighborhoods I think the attention to the detail like the general detail and layouts is appreciated as you can see with the lab siding and the batons I can see the ability to be able to revise certain bits and customize the elements easily it would also Echo the last comments regarding the flaw plan I think the floor plan could be made a little bit more efficient I find some of the way the spaces are laid out to be especially when you're working with really small areas like this every inch or every square inch counts there's a couple of inefficiencies around the doors and some areas that could benefit from a little bit more space as well and you find the construction cost although the total sounds almost right the cost per square foot might be a little low for current pricing in Squamish but if you maybe to make it in the standard kit of parts I can see how that cost might be able to come down I feel like this project could benefit from further exploration in detail design especially around the suits and sorry I'm skipping through this so quickly but other than that I actually think it's a relatively good

SPEAKER_02
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project thank you who from online would like to

SPEAKER_04
0:15:44 (0:00:02)

go oh go

SPEAKER_02
0:15:46 (0:00:00)

than great thank

SPEAKER_04
0:15:47 (0:01:38)

you so yeah I mean I think that this is quite you know it's a relatively attractive building that would fit into a lot of different neighborhoods without competing too much so you know I'm satisfied with that in terms of the layout and what they say they're doing in for accessibility I appreciate and think that it's quite a good use of space tucking away the lift to the balcony I really like that however they do claim to meet the 2024 accessibility guidelines or adaptability guidelines for the washroom and they do not so it's it doesn't currently provide enough space to transfer into the shower because you're facing it so that would need to be revised and then what else what other comments have I got here I gave them you know decent score for Innovation and sustainability but I also then questioned again you know what sort of privacy would exist between you know the balcony and the space beneath the balcony which looks fantastic but if it's not you know close family members with whomever is living in the main house you know it doesn't provide that privacy so that would be my main comments

SPEAKER_02
0:17:25 (0:00:17)

thanks thank you very much yeah Charles do you want to add any

SPEAKER_05
0:17:43 (0:01:10)

comments yeah I I'm I believe that I wouldn't I thought that this was you know the best most worked out most believable of the of the schemes it's you know it's buildable and it works and it looks you know fairly nice it's you know it's not you know it's not very original I mean and that's part of I think what you know why it's very believable is we look at the if you look at the assemblies for the exterior wall U it's very conventional construction and you know but that there's a certain cost associated with that I do think that the estimates probably a little bit on the low side and it's just you know this isn't being particularly Innovative but you know but it does the job in terms of what they were setting out to do

SPEAKER_02
0:18:53 (0:00:07)

here great thanks any other comments on that Charles or is that conclude your input on this

SPEAKER_05
0:19:00 (0:00:03)

one yeah no that's all

SPEAKER_02
0:19:04 (0:00:25)

great okay thank you very much okay maybe before we move on to the next one I'll check in with ADP members and see if we want to continue with this format or if we'd want to go with them more unstructured where people can add comments if they want but not if they don't do you want to continue going one by one or thoughts would you like to just add if you have comments and not if you

SPEAKER_03
0:19:30 (0:00:06)

don't yeah I find when you go one by one it's a little easier when you have a hybrid meeting so that we aren't just jumping on top of each other

SPEAKER_02
0:19:37 (0:00:15)

good call yeah okay well we'll go continue on one by one I just didn't want to put anybody on the spot where they felt they had to if they didn't feel like they had comments but if everybody's happy with that Sarah and Charles does that work for

SPEAKER_01
0:19:53 (0:00:02)

you yep

SPEAKER_02
0:19:55 (0:00:33)

great all right then we will move on to the next one which is 106 so it looks like this for those of you in house should we continue with the same order or should we go back and forth or choose a new person to start maybe I'll choose a new person to start each time I do you want to Luke would you like to go first this time or

SPEAKER_01
0:20:28 (0:02:10)

yeah I can take the charge I found I appreciated how this one was like somewhat different to the other submissions however I do struggle with this the scale of it and there's a small scale building but there's so much Rock and blank wall proposed that it felt somewhat monolithic like I do appreciate the materials but I think the way they've been used wasn't necessarily implied in the best strategy and it could benefit from a little more attention to detailing of the overall facade and elevations in terms of like the flaw play I kind of somewhat appreciate the fact that there's a large amount of parking proposed in here and that the fact that the actual open space is being brought to the upper level I do feel that like almost there's almost so much open space which is which is great that it could almost benefit from a little bit more livable area especially when you're entering and you're coming into this space there's a not a lot of area for being able to throw all of your gear away and having that storage down on the ground plane is tricky I do I do question the accessible portions of the lift and how that would work with the three foot wide area moving around there but I'll definitely let Sarah speak to that one I apologize but I might have missed the pricing oh I did miss it there it is yeah I think given the fact that there's Stone proposed around this whole thing there those prices are a little bit low and then the fact that it's the garage with ICF forming also yeah a little on the low side is a little optimistic for

SPEAKER_02
0:22:39 (0:00:09)

me thank you Luke who wants to go next inhouse all right thank you

SPEAKER_03
0:22:48 (0:00:34)

may I ask a question before we go a lot further just to clarify in terms of the intent for these designs the idea that I understand is that there'll be sort of a series of like almost like pre pre-approved templates and if you stick sort of close to the template when you apply it's a FastTrack process but how close to those floor plans like how is it exactly like that how much leeway do you have from it because I don't want to go too far into talking about the floor plans if they don't really matter I guess that's the question

SPEAKER_02
0:23:23 (0:01:25)

yeah okay thanks so first off we're using the term pre reviewed as opposed to pre-approved mainly because many of the charact or criteria that our building our plan Checkers have to evaluate with each submission are site specific things like fcl and or the flood proofing so we can't say pre-approved there's a fair bit that does need to be checked for each one what we've said is that submissions that are made will go into priority sequence ahead of other adus and Suites so that'll be the priority for review and that we will look at reduction in fees in the future although we haven't done that at this point and yeah that's a question that came up like how much variants are we going to support and still keep in that category I think we'll be fairly lenient because much of the evaluation does there's still quite a bit that's related to the site so there's going to be time put in anyway but I think we're going to have to evaluate that like strictly speaking if there's a lot of variants then we can just say hey this doesn't align and we'll probably have to discuss with our plan Checkers to see how much additional work each one is taking so I don't have a clear answer on that but I think we'll try to be as lenient as possible but do reserve the right to hold if it if there's enough

SPEAKER_03
0:24:48 (0:02:30)

variants okay that's great that answers my question thanks I but I will comment on the floor plans of this one a little bit too just following up on Luke's comments yeah I did find that I found it optimistic the cost associated with the construction for this one especially CLT that one's problematic for me because I know from experience that the suppliers of mass Timber are so reluctant to supply small quantities of mass timber for projects they just don't have the time in their schedule or the capacity it tends to be something that we have a really hard time on small projects not impossible but if we're going to make it something that is readily accessible to most it's going to be a sticking point I think so that's just the one and also the stone cladding as well I would agree that it's really it's quite nice maybe it's just indicative and not something that you know we should be focusing too much on but again it's it it's all just added cost and something where we're trying to really make these places affordable for people because they really the big barrier right now is access so if we can trim it down and be really Innovative in our approach and take away sort of trim the fat off of these things then I think it's going to make it more desirable and I would add to that I think again when I saw this first I thought oh wow that's great to have access to such a nice big outdoor space although I do know from having experience living in tight quarters in Vancouver that outdoor space gets used for your storage you try convert it and city of Vancouver is always constantly trying to find ways to prevent people from putting rofes on these things and enclosing them and making them livable space anyone who's dealt with the issue of enclosed balconies will know what I'm talking about so I think that will be a constant struggle for the district is trying to find a way that people aren't going to just enclose it and use it for FSR if it's not something that you want to allow people to do and in terms of I didn't have much to say in terms of sighting because I find the Carriage House ones all have a very sort of similar relationship to the house and the laneway so in terms of like form and character on the lot it kind of you know it looks like a carriage house above a garage it could benefit from more windows but I appreciate that there's a trade-off there in terms of cost and Energy Efficiency so I'd say that's my nutshell comments for this

SPEAKER_02
0:27:18 (0:00:03)

one thank you so much I will turn over to

SPEAKER_00
0:27:22 (0:01:57)

John thanks Matt this one I felt like it the exterior looks both busy and like it has both elements that are too busy and too blank like it was a weird contrast to have both of those things in the same structure so I did kind of struggle with that just like visual appeal of it I think part of that is yeah maybe the rock clading on or on Stone cladding on such a small building is a little maybe a little out of place again like I well I like this idea of the their prefabricated wood system that was appealing that idea of you know work like doing construction in a con tight place you don't have a lot of room in this type of infill for coming and going and the construction activities so that idea of being able to drop all the materials on site and assemble it quickly that's really appealing so high marks for that again yeah I mean I think we're going to going to run into this with a lot of these this issue around storage you know if this is a true one bedroom plus Den maybe that Den is becomes a good location for storage on the other hand you know you might see people needing to use that Den as a second bedroom or an office and in that case there isn't a lot of storage space so I totally we in wler have the same issue with balconies getting used for storage instead of other things and we also have the balony conversions that's an ongoing challenge so yeah but otherwise I yeah really appreciate the effort and I like this the construction system that they're working with I like that as a

SPEAKER_02
0:29:19 (0:00:07)

concept thank you John I'll move to online Sarah would you like to

SPEAKER_04
0:29:27 (0:01:35)

start sure I concur with every I mean I think that the rock is overkill it kind of I kind of mostly hate it in terms of the elevator I mean it does meet the CSA requirements it is a bit tight but I do like that it's screened and you know not obvious that the elevator is there I don't mind the layout inside but visually on the outside I really don't like this building let me just it does meet the requirements in the b in the washroom so that's great and I like that there's you know movable Island I you know question whether or not you know how adaptable it will be or if there's an opportunity for actually with any of these units to have you know kind of movable cupboards or fold away doors beneath sinks so that you would be able to wheel under them would be fantastic you know whether or not that's able to be built in I like the building system being these prefab panels I think that's great yeah I just find the rock is too much and I yeah visually it's just too much if you could take away the outside and sort of refig configure it that would be that would be better so that's my

SPEAKER_02
0:31:02 (0:00:07)

comment great thank you very much Sarah and I'll turn to Charles for the last

SPEAKER_05
0:31:10 (0:01:20)

comment okay you know on the previous scheme I you know I complained a little bit about what I thought was you know lack of innovation in terms of the construction technology and on that one I'm happy to see you know an intent of being kind of innovative but in the execution of this it it's just it's extremely awkward and unrealistic right I mean it's extremely expensive construction and the designer here have created unnecessary constraints for themselves the module po it that they are pursuing here is extremely chunky and not very flexible and leads to a plan that's overall kind of not very efficient yeah I just I don't think that this is this is obviously not the you know a really kind of thought out concept so I just I don't I don't think it really

SPEAKER_02
0:32:31 (0:00:04)

works okay is that the conclusion for you

SPEAKER_05
0:32:35 (0:00:02)

Charles yeah no I don't like this

SPEAKER_02
0:32:38 (0:00:20)

one okay thank you very much moving forward we'll now move to it is 107 which is the peekaboo Lookout I think if we're starting in house Beth it'll be your chance to

SPEAKER_03
0:32:59 (0:03:32)

start thanks Matt yeah this one I don't remember my technical comments on this one I got a bit romanced by the aesthetic right off the bat and wondered if that would really be affordable yeah but again yeah I do I do like initially from like an aesthetic perspective I like that it's pushing forward what looks like a cedar cladding combustibility and proximity to the other houses might be an issue with that sadly unless of course you kind of go with a really expensive flame retardant coating which kind of defeats the purpose of using what looks to be like Cedar cladding I love it that idea again of using a wood cladding material because one of the things that's so special about Squamish is the vernacular and using that material and a lot of times we use the fake material because of the combustibility and fireproofing issues but it's just so nice to see the real thing every now and then because that's the real sort of natural resource industry that we knew back in the day I appreciate that this had a component of modular building as well again I definitely agree with Charles because I love to see The Innovation in the building typology but I also recognize that Squamish is a bit slow to catch up in building Innovation techniques for small scale stuff I think it's really good at the large scale I think the trades are really busy working on projects that have Innovative structural and thermal envelope detailing at the small scale I know I have friends who are really struggling to get people who to work on smaller projects who won't step or they're so reluctant to step out of the box I know that's not necessarily a reason to kick things out the door because you know the construction industry needs to come up to speed too and if they need to come up to speed this is going to be a good impetus for them but it's nice to see a balance of something that's kind of like familiar in terms of the wall Construction and achievable and you know I think adding cranes to the mix definitely makes things a little bit more costly and sort of require specialty people to build it so that kind of thing is just the thing I have in the back of my mind in terms of like moving fast getting you know making use of like the skilled labor base here that exists right now and putting these things up with sort of known techniques and access to the materials at local kind of I guess suppliers so like one of those things here I look at right now this interior rending is gorgeous look at that beautiful clear story window that clear story window is custom and it is going to cost a fortune and I still love it so it pains me to say that but I think like still I kind of the scale seems quite appropriate the way it's sitting on site the way that it relates to the garage the way that it's kind of got like a quiet design aesthetic that it's putting forward just focusing on sort of like the local materials I like all those aspects of this project and I didn't really look at the costing so I can't comment on it right now but I do also recall appreciating the layout of this particular one too I thought it was quite unique the way that they stacked the storage on either sides of the washroom the washroom looks like it could be a bit of a challenge from an accessibility point of view but I will certainly let Sarah speak to that one as well and I think that's it for me yeah

SPEAKER_02
0:36:31 (0:00:06)

mouthful great thank you so much Beth I'll stay in house and look to John to go

SPEAKER_00
0:36:38 (0:01:20)

next thanks Matt so same First Impressions I'm like totally a sucker for wood cladding and the images in the package were very attractive so yeah totally like the shape and the cladding choice of clading material I appreciate the proposed modular component construction so again this idea of being able to assemble it quickly when we're thinking you know this is really helpful for this really tight infill type of construction again it seems like a reasonable per square foot cost if that's if that's realistic or not but appreciate that and I did yeah the floor plan seemed nice I thought that the indoor the indoor outdoor space that was a really nice relationship between the living space inside and the generous deck on the outside and I thought they did seem to do a really nice job of balancing light like the fenestration and privacy here so that's obviously a challenge for this type of building and I thought this was sensitive in that way

SPEAKER_02
0:37:58 (0:00:05)

great thank you John and I'll move to

SPEAKER_01
0:38:04 (0:02:21)

Luke yeah I think I think romanticized is a really great point and there some really great points mentioned by the other colleagues here and yeah I think it's a really great I think it's a really great use of form to really like articulate the building it s I can imagine it sitting well in like any like multiple neighborhoods but it really characterizes the I don't want I don't want to use the word vernacular because SC struggles to have one but it I can see that fitting in multiple neighborhoods and sitting in quite well but while also taking in quite lots of light and having nice private spaces I actually really enjoy the effort made to innovate the floor plan the use of storage and nooks and crannies to be able to TU things away while also creating somewhat of a minimalist interior which you know it kind of rings true with me there are I think I think it's difficult to pick on these sometimes and expect them to be perfect like because there's areas in this which can be developed and I think is old to this such as the cler window I mean yeah I agree it's custom and it's expensive but maybe there's ways to Value engineer it by putting m moons in and things like that as it gets developed it would have been nice to see the option for proposed add-on for elevators to make it accessible I feel the where that could be a bit more attention paid would be the lower level although I do enjoy the cleanness of the streetscape and the g the garage door comes down and the building overlaps to give it coverage there's so much consideration given to this it just could have benefited maybe from a little more thought in the garage maybe there's more opportunity for the storage there as well but I'm just getting picky the costing there wasn't a lot of detail on that I just saying $55,000 per finished meter squared with the wooden batons and the detailing for this I think it would be quite tricky but with value engineering you might be able to get closer to that yeah I think everyone else covered all the other

SPEAKER_02
0:40:25 (0:00:19)

points great thank you Luke I'll move to online and I think did I think Sarah went first online last time so maybe we'll stick with

SPEAKER_05
0:40:45 (0:02:00)

Charles S okay I really love this scheme to me there's a great understanding of scale here where the complexity of the form is just right for the size of building and it's beautifully you know detailed I think it this is a really believable example of something that could you know realistically be flatpacked and built modular in an assembly line and delivered you know in the proper quantities delivered at a substantial savings cost wise and I'm really impressed with the level of attention in you know evident in the floor plan to you know getting every little bit of efficiency and little bits of storage and getting the sizes and the proportions of the spaces right it's very livable you know floor plan just really nice yeah I mean the wood cliding I don't know how much of a you know realistically how much of that is a real problem here I think and you know if this if this did end up being you know some other type of cladding you know the volumetrics and the composition here with you know how the these volumes are kind of carved out and the openings are punched through it would work even if it was just you know if you if you did this out of just flat fiber cement panel it would still look great you know yeah I think I you know to me this one's a real a real winner an example of how this kind of problem should be

SPEAKER_02
0:42:45 (0:00:18)

approached great oh sorry I was waiting for the pause to see if that was the end if there's something more to say Charles I apologize keep going okay I'll assume that was it thank you Charles I'll move to Sarah

SPEAKER_04
0:43:03 (0:01:31)

then I agree with what's been said about the space I think it's thoughtfully designed I really appreciate the Privacy that exists that you know sitting in your space and not sort of being overlooked but I did give them big old zero for their efforts with accessibility you know there could be potentially if the stairs were slightly wider you know maybe a lift and the platform added where the bicycle is on the on the drawings right now but the washroom is never going to be accessible having said that I think that all of these buildings you know that we should ensure that there's backing in the walls for grab bars in the future because people can still age and you know walk stairs but it's a stability and bathroom that's often an issue I thought the pricing was you know quite reasonable and that this could fit in a number of neighborhoods while you know remaining distinct from other buildings but yeah overall I mean I do appreciate it but I thought you know given the design brief of what was supposed to be presented they could have at least you know spoken to we putting backing in the walls and in the washroom would have a step but just to ignore it felt a bit dismissive and you're not trying hard enough so that's my only

SPEAKER_02
0:44:34 (0:00:35)

comments okay thank you Sarah moving on the next one is Bento this guy and I thought I'd just give heads up for those inside I in the office I had printed out some copies but I may not have made them super clear so after Bento is going to be Suga but anyway Bento now we've started on in housee for first comments for the last several Charles or Sarah would either of you like to be the first commenter for

SPEAKER_05
0:45:10 (0:01:02)

bento yeah I wouldn't mind go ahead then Charles the I do like this scheme quite a lot I like the almost kind of retro aesthetic of this as being you know a very pure mid-century modern with a lot of Japanese influen this idea that it's a simple a simple box and you know with this you know this very regular kind of pattern of glazing in Mullens I think it works well for the scale of building here I'm sorry I'm trying to bring up on my own screen the floor plans because I recall me you know that I had a little bit of issues with some of the floor plans what's the number on this

SPEAKER_02
0:46:12 (0:00:02)

one 111

SPEAKER_05
0:46:14 (0:01:07)

it's it is it's 11 okay let me let me get that open here right Yeah well yeah I think the way that the space is detailed and treated lends itself well to the scale of the of the project it's reasonably efficient layout I don't know how realistic those tiny little kind of bed length bedrooms are yeah I like them but there's a part of me that you know that has a certain you know romantic Nostalgia for you know the life of a monk and this little you know house seems to lend itself well to that but yeah that those tiny little bedrooms I think would be you know an issue for most people

SPEAKER_02
0:47:22 (0:00:06)

yeah thank you we'll stay online Sarah would you like to go

SPEAKER_04
0:47:28 (0:01:48)

next sure this actually was my favorite of the of them all I like that there's it it's simple but then there's also the option of having different roof shapes depending on you know where you're placing this I like the construction methods that there's you know sort of a different piece if you're going to add the elevator aspect and remove one of the bedrooms which then allows a larger bedroom what else have I got in my notes here one thing to note is that in some of these quote unquote adaptable units is that if there's going to be a wheel in shower that's placed in there immediately is that the plumbing fixtures need to move from the end wall to the side wall so that it's not going to be it's going to be reachable from a seated position and additionally you know there would need to be a few more considerations like I think that all of these units should have wiring for visual fire alarms you know the washer dryer like need to make sure that the electrical schematics are going to allow kind of a lower Outlet if it's going to be a washer dryer combo but otherwise I do really like this I like the placement of the windows in the kitchen and the light that comes in and again you know a bit of privacy so yeah overall I thought this was a great project that's all my comments

SPEAKER_02
0:49:17 (0:00:08)

great thank you Sarah moving in person who wants to go

SPEAKER_01
0:49:25 (0:01:50)

first yeah and I mean if I can give points for how to lay out a sheet these people really know what they're doing it's very nicely I just want to commend the graphic it's really as my architectural side is just really liking this anyway no it's a really nice flaw plan I really appreciate the consideration that's been put into its layout I think the access is quite successful encompassing the bathroom I enjoy that they have consciously made a choice to give less space to the bedroom and more space to the living which are sacrifices that sometimes have to be made in these really small scale projects I do understand however that makes it more difficult and it's contrary to adaptable requirements I appreciate even the detailing is very minimal but like even just the consideration given to the garage for one large parking space but a smaller space for potentially bikes or other things that facilitate and react to the hobbies that people have in these spaces I am the only one thing I am slightly confused about is that there's so much consideration given to it that I wonder I wonder why maybe I'm missing it the stair hasn't been flipped west to east which will give even more opportunities for storage but poten po I'm missing something there maybe it's for an future elevator I think this one in terms of like the cost breakdown is one of the most accurate I've seen out of the lot so far so I would applaud that and I can see it being able to be built in multiple different ways yeah I overall I think it's actually a really great

SPEAKER_02
0:51:15 (0:00:07)

effort thanks Luke next John you want to take a stab at

SPEAKER_00
0:51:22 (0:01:23)

it yes yeah so like really attractive visuals it's the package was really appealing you know this Moody evening photo in front of the chief like it looks awesome I was like oh yeah and with the with the Jeep in there like I this is like for sure I yeah I think like it's very simple right it's just a square it's a box you know compared to some of the others with that have a lot more shape to them sculptural elements there's I guess it means it allows for that really efficient easy floor plan I guess it means though that it's missing outdoor space for the for the residents but overall yeah I really like this one and I thought they did a great job conceiving of it I think that you know offering those easy the modules and the easy sort of conversion depending on you know one versus two-bedroom being able to pick and choose other elements to customize it within that modular conception was super successful so yeah hi

SPEAKER_02
0:52:46 (0:00:02)

marks thank you John

SPEAKER_03
0:52:49 (0:02:43)

Beth yeah I mean I don't have so much more that I can add everybody said a lot of what I was going to say as well I really like this one of course the package is very well prepared I really appreciate how efficient the layout and the use of materials is in this one I love again the wrapping the stair The Loft storage I really love that they've created a space in the garage that's kind of like a storage it's dedicated storage space but you can also put your car in it that's impossible in Squamish like everybody leaves their cars out so they can have this bike Shrine or like a place put your skis but this is kind of dedicated to spaces and I really like the way that they've accomplished that I appreciate that if you if you go further into the package they've provided an expanded option which allows you to have larger spaces larger bedrooms larger bathroom I think that's a great I love this that there's scalability built into it because you know there's going to be differing needs there's there are like people who come to Squamish to be monks and just sleep eat and you know take your pick climb ski k surf and they just need a small space and there are people who need a little bit more space because maybe they've got like a family a growing small growing family or maybe it's Aging in place and you can you can choose to kind of scale the size of the living space so I think that's really wonderful I love sort of the passive ventilation aspect of it the fact that all the materials are kind of broken down into smaller increments makes it more easy to access materials locally and easier for you know to use trades that are not necessarily specialized in construction certain construction techniques or even build it yourself if you're the homeowner which is a really important thing to consider as well rainwater collection is another great consideration and it just doesn't seem to me it seems believable it doesn't seem too complicated it's tight to the principal dwelling but you know a lot of these dwellings have generous sidey conditions which is good as well and sometimes you know people will make the choice to sort of sa rice that backyard space if they get a building like this and just one last thing I did appreciate also yeah I think the rendering totally sells it as you suggest John because it's like the materiality the color the texture like it it's it right away it's just a modern approach to like the bevel cladding that you see like in the highlands that you see in galdi States and you know in Valley Cliff as well so it's not it's not overthe toop modern it still kind of has a nod sort of to the local building culture which I love

SPEAKER_00
0:55:32 (0:00:07)

well and like Charles mentioned this the Retro appeal of it it's like yeah so they I think they did a really nice job

SPEAKER_03
0:55:39 (0:00:27)

and I just I look at it and I'm like yep those could be those could be garage doors that you could Source here and you don't have to get from Europe like all this stuff kind of is really important when you want to make it accessible to people and save costs and you know just put standard off theh shelf Parts on it that and but use them in a creative way and an efficient way that's the way we're going to solve these problems in my opinion so that's my comments on that one

SPEAKER_02
0:56:07 (0:00:59)

great thank you very much okay that concludes the carriage no yes that does conclude the carriage house I believe yes we're now moving on to category two the backyard Cottage part of the reason for including this category is because it seemed like of the better opportunities for increasing the number of adus in the community we see lots of backyards you know area like Valley Cliff where we haven't traditionally seen adus in part because we previously required access for a vehicle and we're removing that being more flexible so this is a we think an opportunity to see more housing in places we haven't been seeing it so let's start off with the first one which is two- three which is the sugga and I think Sarah you haven't started off a talk yet is that

SPEAKER_04
0:57:06 (0:00:03)

correct that's right I haven't I haven't started

SPEAKER_02
0:57:10 (0:00:00)

well it's your

SPEAKER_04
0:57:11 (0:00:02)

turn

SPEAKER_02
0:57:13 (0:00:01)

ohoo

SPEAKER_04
0:57:14 (0:01:53)

so overall I thought that this was a relatively attractive building that could fit into you know a number of spaces I did have let me just get to floor plan here come on yeah so I like the way that it looks but again I have some problems with the washroom layout because it's not providing enough space to easily transfer if you can't weight bare through your legs into that space and again it's got a number of it's not a square layout it's similar to their Carriage House I mean overall I think that it's not bad the layout the you know there has been some good considerations for sort of sustainability I thought I like that they've got a future ramp I don't know hang on let me just see what if it's screened or not oh yeah it's not I don't particular I don't particularly like the look of a ramp I like it when it's sort a bit more screens so that it's not kind of a glaring obvious there's a big ramp but otherwise I think that you know it's a it's a decent project that's all my

SPEAKER_02
0:59:07 (0:00:05)

comments thank you Sarah Charles can we go to you at this

SPEAKER_05
0:59:13 (0:02:14)

point yeah sure I when I first opened up the you know the entire collection of packages it struck me immediately how it was clear that you had a certain number of individuals enthused about this competition and they decided to make entries in multiple categories right but then it became a bit of a struggle of trying to be objective about each of the individual submissions without you know without comparing them right but on the other hand it's kind of interesting as well to look at you know the approach on the Carriage House versus the elevated Cottage you know where you know they're clearly the same people working the problem and seeing how their Solutions you know differ this particular submission I think is very comparable to the Carriage House submission but I think not quite as successful interestingly enough it's still a good a good a good layout it's very buildable immediately buildable and it's thought it's completely thought out I mean this you know you could just go ahead and build this thing right and I think that would be it would be it would be a good building a good addition you know to the neighborhoods where it goes in it's yeah it yeah I think it's good it's highly competent and it's and it's believable and we could just go ahead and say yeah anyone who wants one of these you know go ahead in that Spirit of saying these are going to be you know kind of pre- reviewed you know clearly this one is ready to

SPEAKER_02
1:01:28 (0:00:11)

go great thank you Charles moving in person which of you would like to jump looks like John is

SPEAKER_00
1:01:39 (0:01:11)

thanks Matt yeah I think you know it seemed like there's a appreciated the thought for standardized materials and simple and durable materials I think it's a really easy design like it would fit into unobtrusively into neighborhoods so really appreciate the thought that went into that really thoughtful around the cost I think it's pretty like you know with these small buildings like something that's simple allows for an efficient use of space so I thought they did you know a reasonable job with that appreci I did notice that they have the Oilers and canu scheme on I think in the living room so good little throwback to the playoffs a couple weeks ago and so yeah tot like I could I think similar thoughts to Charles like easily see this working well and providing really comfortable living space in a fairly you know simple easy to build structure so really competent looks pretty reasonable across the

SPEAKER_02
1:02:50 (0:00:07)

board thanks John in person who else Luke you look like you're

SPEAKER_01
1:02:58 (0:02:00)

y can you hear me there we go yeah I think I see that they've noted the typical existing conditions and I do I do see this like big sort of appearance of this building fitting in quite well with the especially given the older Valley Cliff buildings it seems to sort of have Echoes of them and its in its Arrangement and form so I do see that fitting in relatively well in that way whether or not I subjectively believe that's the right move forwards I do find the plan akin to like the you know not to compare like to the other submission that they had but I do find the plan a little bit especially with the cutouts it does I do find it would increase the construction cost but it also doesn't seem to provide much efficiency to me when I'm looking at the plan I feel that like there could be a little bit more consideration that was given to where that being given that this is again a pre-review plan which could be built everywhere I think that the most efficient plan that could be arrived that would be would be more preferable having said that I do see that this plan itself has more flexibility to be made accessible given a couple of changes one thing I thought could have been I do I do also appreciate that there's been consideration given to firefighter access and the location of that front door but I do believe that the building sighting I would have been nice to see a little bit more consideration given to that I feel like it's just sort of tucked in the back corner which maybe was a consideration to give the ma to maximize open space but I'm not sure if it was as successful as it could have been points

SPEAKER_02
1:04:59 (0:00:03)

excellent thank you Beth do you want to close us out on this one

SPEAKER_03
1:05:02 (0:02:19)

sure thing I think I agree with some of the comments that were said before especially Charles off the bat saying it's hard not to compare the two schemes because there's a lot of similarities as well in the floor plans as Luke was saying as well and I struggled with some of those inefficiencies as well I just I just want to square this thing off and get rid of the balcony and kind of create more livable space for these guys the sighting I interesting perspective because I was like oh yeah it's quite interesting that the way that they've tucked it aside and tried to give a bigger backyard which is nice as well and it kind of poses the question as to like where's the ownership of the backyard at that point like or do you all just share it together which is great if you sort of know each other as well but it' be kind of neat to see an option that would give like a little bit more like give a little bit of back space yard to the Adu and a little of the principal dwelling or find a way to make it sharable but give those options because there's always going to be different relationships on the site I struggled with the balcony I'm not really sure what the purpose of it is especially since it's kind of tucked off to the side of the house it just seems like it could be better used to storage space because I like I go in here and I would think I have no idea where I would put my like quiver of backpacks I I'm not sure where that would go maybe you know I app appreciate because I have been bringing up I like that there's some access to local materials and construction techniques that could would you know people would be familiar with off the bat to just get this thing going but the ventilated attic I think misses an opportunity because there's so much space up there that you could use for other things so I might be inclined to kind of suggest you know going with something more of like a perfect roof in that in that situation without board insulation just to give it more space and then yeah maybe not putting the mechanical in such a celebratory location but kind of tucking that off in like a Nook somewhere else and taking up maybe more of the suggested storage space if you're going to remove space from the layout in general for that purpose but I do agree that the way that it's been proposed like in terms of form and character it's inoffensive for sure and it could it could fit in with in any neighborhood really in that in that way and not a standout

SPEAKER_02
1:07:22 (0:00:23)

way great thanks so much Beth all right the next one is 209 and maybe we'll go back to John to start us off for this one this guy right here or if you need a minute would either of you like to start out with 209 nope okay

SPEAKER_00
1:07:45 (0:00:54)

John go for it fa yeah I did not select this one in our initial short list interesting I thought yeah I mean but I don't know why I guess it I don't want to be offensive here but it kind of just looked like a double wide to me but I guess that's good right like pretty it would be pretty quick and easy to put together fits on the space nicely a pretty easy use of space in the interior so I suppose I don't really have a whole lot to say other beyond that yeah for a nice one-bedroom works pretty well and that's it great thank

SPEAKER_02
1:08:40 (0:00:04)

you Luke or Beth

SPEAKER_01
1:08:44 (0:01:19)

Luke I'll take the bullet I'm struggling with the detail in the drawings and the consideration that was given to the plan given the other submissions had lot so much thought and I can see the decision making that had gone into them I do struggle with this one like having the two entries like one in the kitchen and then two entries into the bathroom I see why it's been done for guests but it doesn't really lend itself to efficiencies and there's just some elements just feel like they were tacked on there like the closets the washer dryer doesn't look like it would fit there's just a lot of red flags that I'm seeing popping up here and again yeah the lack of detail that's given into like where it could potentially sit on a site though I don't see other than this site plan that's tucked away at the end it doesn't even give reference to context for another building so I would question given where it is whether it meets whether it's code compliant yeah I'm sorry I this one's not for me

SPEAKER_02
1:10:04 (0:00:03)

thanks okay thank you

SPEAKER_03
1:10:08 (0:01:03)

Beth I agree with the comment put the sighting I found that to be a little bit confusing and difficult to judge I appreciated that it was a smaller a smaller configuration entry I agree that there's some problematic elements to the way that it's laid out but I could see somebody who's looking for something very Bare Bones being okay with a space like this I appreciate also that the form is quite like the plan form the envelope is quite standard with not too much articulation to add additional cost a little bit when you look at it in the elevations and agree that maybe the for the scale of the space the two entrances it's not going to do anything for the Energy Efficiency and I don't think it really gives anything to the layout either but that said I think yeah it is nice to have something that has a has consideration for like a smaller like a smaller typology if that's all that somebody wants to do yeah that's it and for form wise if you ignore the clading it's fairly simple so I appreciate that

SPEAKER_02
1:11:11 (0:00:07)

great thanks we'll go to online Charles would you like to provide some

SPEAKER_05
1:11:19 (0:00:42)

commentary yeah sure yeah I I'm not crazy about this one it's I I'll just put it this way I think it's underd designed and there's it's too conventional you know there's zero Innovation here it yeah there's not much that's really commend able here it's yeah

SPEAKER_02
1:12:01 (0:00:00)

yeah I

SPEAKER_05
1:12:02 (0:00:35)

I yeah I don't want to be too harsh you know about this thing but it's it feels kind of like a high school drafting kind of level of design and it's there's not enough ambition and real you know and thought you know put into this scheme for it to Merit kind of

SPEAKER_02
1:12:37 (0:00:06)

consideration okay thanks Charles Sarah do you w to provide any last commentary on this

SPEAKER_04
1:12:44 (0:00:36)

one yeah I mean I agree with what everyone said it wasn't one of my choices and though the bathroom might work it's yeah I mean just I don't really like the look of it from the from the outside and then yeah inside it's a bit tight I don't understand I mean I other than holding a barbecue I don't understand what the side deck is all about so yeah it wouldn't be one of myh first choices that's all my comments

SPEAKER_02
1:13:20 (0:00:31)

okay thank you next one to 10 is king fisher just a one note so we're at 3:15 TimeWise so I think we're tracking for over two hours but not a long time over two hours so I hope that's okay with everybody and let's stick with another start with another in person start to the commentary either who Luke would you like to start okay Luke go for it with king fisher

SPEAKER_01
1:13:52 (0:01:58)

cabin okay this one I'm struggling with a little bit because I I'm somewhat conflicted by the pre- reviewed plans being that I have seen this project elsewhere I don't recall whether it was a pre-review of plans for Penington or not or Colona but that I guess that is the nature of a pre-review plan is that it does get bought and moved around everywhere but I mean that would be my initial comment which doesn't have much weight to it however when I look through the package I did see that it wasn't even it wasn't massively appropriated to the site plan it would sort of again the site the sighting not to be picky but it was sort of just plunked there and I would have liked to have seen a little bit more consideration given to the activation of the space around it because I'm all for this densification but I believe that it has to be done in the correct way and we have to use the tools that we have available to us to create the these livable spaces whether be interior and exterior but moving on to the design itself I do appreciate the fact that this building can be rotated and moved given that it is a pre-review plan I think what they've produced is quite successful in that you can rotate the building that rotate the roof or the building wherever you want and it reacts to the energy model in that you can still get the light in through that chorri window the plan is obviously it's gone through many iterations as again I think it's available elsewhere but I think it's quite successful and it and it works well it seems to be quite efficient to me I also do appreciate the fact that given that it can go anywhere that they've also given the option for varying exterior material palettes to let it blend in better to either your own personal style or into a local neighborhood yeah I'll leave it

SPEAKER_02
1:15:51 (0:00:04)

there thanks Beth do you want to speak to this one next

SPEAKER_03
1:15:55 (0:00:49)

sure yep I'll speed up this time I definitely would Echo some of the comments I had I didn't know that there was there was a pre iteration for this package before but I like the consideration given to switching the cladding I was okay with the plan for this one I liked the linearity of the kitchen the dining the living in all in one space there was consideration given for storage the bedrooms seem fairly generous the bathroom I think is a bit problematic it looks really unreal istic to me a little bit too tight and I don't recall what I had thought about the wall assemblies for this one I don't think that I had done too much heavy lifting yeah maybe I'll actually just leave it there for somebody who

SPEAKER_02
1:16:44 (0:00:01)

great thanks Beth

SPEAKER_03
1:16:46 (0:00:01)

of the

SPEAKER_00
1:16:47 (0:00:45)

assembly I like this one I thought it was a cool shape I like the shape of the roof I like the clar story that's what that is I thought the concept the sort of nine like the grid Matrix concept with the nine cubes sort of was a cool organizing framework for it similar back with the bathroom like they've sort of made the bathroom skinny and so theyve like they've gotten away from the from their Grid in that one case to allow closets in the bedroom but yeah it makes the bathroom seem a maybe a little bit too tight but yeah overall I thought this one was great I liked it

SPEAKER_02
1:17:32 (0:00:12)

thanks John Sarah do you w to make some comments on this one oh H you're muted at this time no

SPEAKER_04
1:17:45 (0:01:29)

problem classic yeah initially I mean I like the sort of clean look and that the there is some flexibility with the roof orientation the style of cladding that you want on the outside I thought that was great you know they speak about the bathroom being adaptable and universally designed but it's far too narrow to accommodate that so not really sure how that would be accomplished and I also again you know I think if the design brief is asking for adaptability then they should have at least shown you know what does a ramp look like on this building and you know again in the context of how is this going to be positioned with another building on the site that's you then we can understand that relationship a bit more because you know it's going to be a lengthy ramp that is going to have a significant impact on the look of the outside of the building so again I mean I think if it's if it's an existing design that's being elsewhere then they should have sorted that out by now and at least included that as the part of the package so I mean it's decent but from an accessibility standpoint I don't think that it that it

SPEAKER_02
1:19:14 (0:00:06)

works thanks sah

SPEAKER_05
1:19:21 (0:00:43)

Charles there's something about this that I is really appealing to me I think there's a there's a real kind of timelessness I would think to this to this design it feels like it's I don't know that it is but it feels almost like it's been inspired by some kind of like a traditional layout yeah I do I love I love that the you know the grid idea the you know the way things are lining up very

SPEAKER_01
1:20:04 (0:00:01)

SPEAKER_05
1:20:05 (0:00:38)

yeah it's very satisfying from a design point of view very well integrated design there's little issues in the layout things that you know that I might you know that I might be tempted to kind of tweak but generally speaking it's nice I'm kind of wondering though is you know the footprint on this is large enough I don't know how easily or how well this really fits into most backyards it's almost it's almost the size of like a you know a post-war Bungalow

SPEAKER_02
1:20:44 (0:00:51)

right okay thank you very much Charles the last shortlisted entry for the backyard Cottage I'm going to call it a quiet place because I am not exactly sure how to pronounce the hasn't started in person is it in person hello maybe we'll start online first Sarah do you feel like starting us

SPEAKER_04
1:21:35 (0:00:43)

off sure I actually quite like this one I think that it's a it's a cool little space I think that they've done a pretty good job with you know trying to incorporate as much sort of storage in there as well or storage within the unit as they can again I'm trying to understand what the shower area looks like whether or not it's kind of a wet room or if it's how that is configured but there is it looks like some pretty decent space in there

SPEAKER_00
1:22:18 (0:00:00)

hang on let

SPEAKER_04
1:22:19 (0:00:52)

me just load up a bit can't see a meter yeah it might be a little bit tight but I mean I guess that's sort of to be anticipated in these smaller spaces yeah again I think just sort of understanding you know it looks like in this situation that the land is being brought up towards the deck and that there's only like a couple of steps but you know depending on where it's going to be located and how much it needs to be raised for fcl then the aesthetic again outside if a ramp needs to be a